All right, great. Well, thank you for speaking with me. It’s been a pleasure. And hopefully we’ll speak again.

Great, great. So, yeah, I think for now those are all of my questions and is there anything, you know, our audience is probably going to be mostly in Europe, but any other thoughts that you would just sort of last minute want them to keep in mind?

And broadband is a human right.

So what do you think would be a good way to sort of bridge that gap as, you know, input in society increasingly requires more technical knowledge? I mean, the obvious answer, I think, is education.

So, yeah. What would you say about ways we can think about it? Because to the. For the. For most people, most jobs are non, you know, not centered around technology. Our education systems may have, you know, the basics of computer science, but not necessarily, you know, enough for ...

Okay, great. So, yeah, what I would also want to talk about is, you know, people are scared at this point of technology. Like you mentioned this in your book, that in a lot of democracies around the world, you know, we mostly see it as. We haven’t been able ...

So how is this something you would generally advocate and if so, how to do it successfully?

Great. And so what would you say as far as you mentioned, the authentic authentication procedures? So we have seen that in Taiwan successfully because being used to hold platforms accountable. I think it’s also worth mentioning sort of the case of South Korea where, you know, they were attempting ...

Okay, great. Because yeah, I think with a lot of the discussion around these, you know, governments sometimes treat it as a military issue or, you know, foreign policy issue. But it sounds like, you know, that these measures that you’re talking about and more directly operating with the public ...

So, okay, so citizen input on how these information platforms are run. That seems like a very effective way to avoid the tricky issues of, you know, top down governments dictating to platforms.

What would be sort of the next step in the online sphere?

Yeah, or like calls to violence I think are pretty specifically known to be bad. Yeah, but yeah. So what would you suggest? Sorry, sort of a broad scope in questions. But we have this thing, you know, idealized people have civic education. Next they’re confronted with an information environment ...

Where would you see sort of a position for either, you know, government actors or citizens themselves to operate within that intervention environment that may have a lot of, you know, misinformation or, you know, otherwise harmful content? Harmful being difficult concept to describe, but like, you know, hateful rhetoric ...

Okay, great. So we have the foundation of a society where people have trust. Now sort of moving to the sort of online components of, you know, let’s say we’re starting at where we are now, which is a variety of different platforms that are, you know, privately controlled and ...

Okay, great. Yeah, I think that is a very good point that, you know, we have many contexts where our ability to contribute to or have a voice is through voting. And still many people do not feel empowered enough that that matters to them. So very definitely a mindset ...

But ideally, ideally, yeah. What is the ideal way this could go?

So would it be with setting up the, you know, online infrastructure of a community system? Would it be sort of this on the ground work both at the same time? In your view, what would be the optimal way? And you know, keep in mind, no place is going ...

Great, great. Okay, so I’m glad you mentioned not just the ROI, but how the system can sort of maintain itself in a positive way. So I would kind of want to go back. So for a reader or I guess a listener, if you were starting at absolute ground ...

Yeah, what’s the ROI? So yeah, what would you say as far as, you know, when other governments are looking at this, how what they should view as successful and are they going to need to, I don’t know, increase taxes or you know, stop spending on potentially other important ...

Gotcha. Gotcha. So yeah, what I would say as the next part is having worked in government, you know, a lot of these issues are often it gets down to the nitty gritty very fast of logistics, budgets, where to go, how to measure efficacy is definitely a very big ...

So within the European context, I suspect that. And I would need to look into this, but trust in things found online is likely similar community ties throughout the Western world are, you know, getting harder and harder to maintain as a trend. So as part of your solution, it ...

I mean, I read some interesting things about the Taiwanese context in that people generally have low trust in the Internet. So a lot of the media literacy programs were on the ground.

More on the ground, it sounds like.

Okay, great. Because. Yeah, that was. You already sort of got it where I was going to go, which is how to transpose some of these findings to the EU. So you’re not saying that we have to scrap the entirety of the projects that have been going on, but ...

Get it so that you have a community that is trustworthy and what do you do with sort of bad actors or people who are trying to change the information environment of that community?

A lot of people don’t quite understand how it works or, you know, the Internet is filled with so much, how do I put this politely? Garbage or things that don’t necessarily work the way that they should. So what for something like Cofacts or…

Interesting. Okay, yeah, that is very cool because I used to work in inoculation and we would have to give them tactics and techniques that we’d identified as being important. But the process you’re talking about, it sounds like the community kind of learns organically, which I think sounds fantastic. ...

Gotcha. Okay, great. So one thing I wanted to ask you is you describe this mechanism of crowdsourced fact checking, source verification, all of that. What do you see as the intersection? And you did talk about this when giving the holistic viewpoint, but just to break it down for ...

I know I’m giving you a hard example, but.

So for an example would be like hurricane. So a hurricane happens and there is generally speaking almost always some comms crisis of sorts where people need to know where to go, you need to know where to get water. It’s unexpected. Similarly like the pandemic. So when people were ...

So one thing I wanted to ask you about. So this seems particularly pertinent when there are, say political issues or where there is something on which a lot of knowledge or research has been conducted. So when people are forming their viewpoints, they can coordinate with others or check ...

Okay, yeah, yeah. So very cool. That definitely rings true. I have a background in developing these sort of inoculation interventions and I recently spoke with some researchers at the University of Cambridge who have a similar thing which is deliberative processing with people and they’re creating an AI that ...

Great. So one thing I wanted to ask about sort of that education model as opposed to just traditional media literacy, is how in depth does that education need to be? So there are so many skills involved like open source intelligence as far as checking a source, versus lateral ...

So, okay, so the Cofacts which you mentioned, I’m familiar with it, but for people who are not familiar with it, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that it’s a forum-like site where people, when they find information online, they post it and ask others, is this true, is ...

Great. Okay, so I think that was a good overview. One thing I have to say, Audrey, is that you are very smart and what we’re going to need is to break it down, of course, into pieces.

Transparency is something that you mentioned. Yeah. What do you think people should know about ways to do that effectively?

Hello, I’m here with Audrey Tang. It is fantastic to meet you and today I’d like to discuss some of what we’ve been talking about recently. Your thoughts on the collection of information surrounding disinfo and monitoring mechanisms, especially those set up by the European Union. Your thoughts on how ...

As a follow up, can I just ask, it also depends on the society where this AI being developed… If you think about in PRC, there is a very different approach to AI. Minister, here AI is being developed in a democracy, but if it’s being developed instead in a ...

A race to safety.

Very nice. One more, just thinking about AI, this is the last one. Where do you see it going? You’ve talked about, I think you see AI or the internet really as a tool that can be used. It’s not good or bad, it’s just a tool. But, because you ...

Interesting. Um, you did write your own job description.

Instead of the O, there’s a zero.

I learned a phrase from you looking at some of the talks you gave, which was fork the government, like fork in the road or a piece of cutlery, a fork. Can you explain how that plays into Taiwanese, it’s not really Taiwanese politics, is it? Can you tell me ...

I’m a big advocate of sleep, so I understand your explanation on that. Just one or two more, and then I will let you go.

So, you sleep well?

Key Performance Index for our listeners.

And does it ever keep you awake at night, the worry of it?

And do you, because when we think of cyber-attacks and some of the figures that you quoted at the beginning, they are quite shocking in a way. And do you have the funding and the people to be able to combat all those attacks that are coming, which I imagine ...

Is it difficult to remain neutral?

I should say, the previous administration, which is a person who was with the KMT, as opposed to the DPP, who are currently in power.