今天非常感謝大家接受突如其來的請求，禮拜一通常是公家機關忙碌的一天，今天大家可以撥空幫忙安排，非常非常感激。我是張恩慈，他是我的先生，我們兩個第一次碰面是在斯里蘭卡內戰結束第四年，第一次進行北部省議會的選舉，他當時是斯里蘭卡律師協會觀選團的協調人，我自己因緣際會的關係，參加了「Asian Network For Free Elections」的觀選計畫。

我們見面的當天就討論了非常多有關於斯里蘭卡的人權問題，尤其是戰爭如何影響青年的想法、心態等等，當下就決定要一起成立青年組織，我們隔天就從事了第一項活動。這個組織叫做「AFRIEL」，一方面是青年天使的意思，另外一方面全名是「Association for Friendship and Love」，其實這個名字代表我們想要在戰後被摧殘的社會建立多一點彼此的關懷，另外一個也是策略上的煙霧彈，因為在北部戰爭過後，軍民比是全世界數一數二地高，每 10 位平民就有 1 位軍人，政府對運動打壓非常用力，情報活動也非常猖獗，因此透過這個名字我們可以在鄉間舉辦一些 Friendship club，討論一些彼此遇到的人權狀況，可以降低情報人員的干預。

因為組織漸漸有規模，參與的人都是青年朋友、小朋友、適婚年齡，因此有人會覺得我們這邊是不是相親的地方，為了不讓青年的父母親擔憂，大部分時候都自稱為 AFRIEL Youth Network。

我們組織的宗旨是希望為斯里蘭卡青年建立一個平臺，尤其是受戰爭影響的這一群，可以瞭解如何用和平、民主的方式去爭取自己的權利，同時也增加公民的政治參與意願，尤其是草根的民眾。達到這個目的，我們透過三個方式，第一個，增加青年對於人權、民主與政治的知識、增加青年跟不同族群的接觸與對話，每一年都會透過兩個課程，每個課程約六個月，這兩個課程加起來每年會有 300 到 350 名，我們特別選出主要是弱勢家庭的青年。

在課程結束之後，他們透過各種不同的活動去跟 1 萬 2,000 名到 1 萬 5,000 名（每年）的草根民眾接觸，一起討論 social issues，在政策、治理上會遇到什麼樣的問題，這個階段就會成為志工，透過組織的指導之下，跟公家機關合作，去增進公民與公家機關間的問題解決跟協作，我們過去九年處理了 3 萬個案件跟土地相關，包含土地非法徵收、非法占領、土地所有權間的紛爭，有將近 6 萬 cases 是跟身分文件有關，因為戰爭的關係，有很多人東西到處失散，有非常多的文件，像身分證、出生證明、結婚證書等等。

在人權的部分，過去九年處理了 1 萬 5,000 個案件，主要著重在移工、勞工權益、婦女權益，及受虐兒的事情，還有包含選舉賄賂等等。在經過第一輪的訓練、第二輪的實務經驗之後，這些青年就會開始從事一些倡議的活動，因為他們從這兩個步驟學到這個社會有哪一些系統性變革需求、哪一些政策需要被改變，去參加一些倡議的活動。

經過多年大家非常努力之下，有一點小小的成果，包含成功讓國會通過一個決議，確保由 18 歲以上的公民可以登記為選民，因為選民登記有時間差的問題，有幾個月出生的人沒有辦法投票，在 2019 年也主辦了斯里蘭卡第一場總統大選辯論會，跟政府的合作方面，像土地調解委員會在2017 年之後，通過資訊權利法案，我們過去這五年一直都是媒體部跟資訊權利委員會的主要合作對象。

為何斯里蘭卡媒體部會跟這個有關？因為他們底下有一個 RTI unit，主要是增加民眾、公務人員對於資訊權利的瞭解。這次會面的目的，希望探索是不是有機會在強化斯里蘭卡資訊權利的部分，可以讓斯里蘭卡的媒體部、資訊權利委員會跟數位部學習與合作。

我們目前正在規劃斯里蘭卡媒體部跟資訊權利委員會的策略規劃（Strategic Planning）活動，大家都知道斯里蘭卡今年破產，所以有很多政府的部門預算不夠，公民團體哪一部分可以幫忙就幫忙，他們接下來五年的策略規劃就是由我們負責。

這個策略規劃的活動，我們會邀請利害關係人討論接下來五年如何讓政府跟公民在資訊共享方面可以更有效率。除了策略規劃以外，我們目前跟媒體部的合作，還有包含訓練 8,000 位公務員，強化他們對於資訊權利的支持，尤其探討過去五年遇到的挑戰與不足的地方。

跟資訊權利委員會合作的部分，主要在於增加公眾的宣傳，另外一部分是當公務員在資訊權利方面有瀆職問題時，我們會特別調查。在 2017 年資訊權利法案通過，每個政府辦公室都會有一個資訊官，他們負責接受申請，然後再提供資訊給民眾，他們剛開始是相當支持的，也大力配合。

最初斯里蘭卡的政府機構主要是跟印度取經，增加公民對資訊權利的需求，其實也改進了不少，但是近年來有越來越多的資訊官會找到小手段去避免或者是延遲提供資訊，現在拒件率相當高，將近有六到七成，這部分就讓公民慢慢覺得對資訊權利法案失去信心。

另外一部分，資訊權利法案有提到鼓勵政府機構針對特別訊息要主動披露，但是在實務上也非常少見。另外一部分我們想要尋求數位部的指導，是有關於公部門系統的數位化，其實有非常多的公眾問題可以得到解決，而且大部分大家申請的資料都是跟行政資料有關，也就是一些文件。數位化的部分可以解決很多問題，像經濟發展、杜絕貪污，增加公民代表的問責跟政治參與等等，但現在遇到的挑戰是，斯里蘭卡沒有身分證件的民眾將近 70 萬，有很多人手上沒有足夠的文件去證明土地所有權，如果想要到公家機關申請副本的話，有很多的案件整個過程是長達將近 20 年。通過資訊權利法案之後，如果提出申請，公家機關有 3 天的時間可以提供 acknowledgement，接下來有 14 天可以回答，如果這部分需要更多的時間來回應，也可以再延長 21 天。

21 天結束之後，如果沒有得到滿意的回答或者是被拒件的話，通常是向資訊官的上級提出異議，有 14 天可以回覆，如果沒有的話，還可以向資訊權力委員會上訴，所以即便是在資訊權利法案通過之後，很多事情還是被拖延非常久。

另外一部分是，斯里蘭卡的人口數其實跟臺灣的人口數相當，有 2,100 萬人，但是公務人員有超過 200 萬人，而且從遴選、升遷到調職都是高度政治化，所以我們跟決策者在倡議改革公務人員的遴選系統或者是制度，尤其是必須要大規模實行國家的考選制度；我們也在跟公民團體跟機構遊說，實施行政系統的數位化。

雖然我們是外行，但是其實整個觀察下來，斯里蘭卡目前相當有潛力做這一塊，因為公家機關並不缺乏硬體設備，只是都沒有在用，民眾跟公務員的電腦知識也是足夠的，跟南亞國家不一樣的是，他們幾乎人手一支智慧型手機，即便在偏鄉地區，雖然並不是人人都有，但是每個家庭都會有至少一個人使用智慧型手機。

比較好的例子是，我們政府破產最嚴重的期間，國家沒有足夠的石油，所以政府決定每一個禮拜每一台車只能買 20 公升的汽油，他們發展了一套 QR code 的系統，給所有的車主登記、加油站使用，這個 QR code 系統發展很快，從開發到實行只花不到一個禮拜，車主的滿意度也都很高。

簡單的結論是，在目前面對斯里蘭卡經濟跟政治不穩定的狀況，其實改革的呼聲都相當強，實行資訊權利法案 5 年的時間，已經遇到瓶頸，非常需要外界的激勵，聆聽成功國家的經驗。

透過策略規劃的活動，臺灣的經驗可以對斯里蘭卡在未來 5 年的資訊權利法案的推動上提供一個不同的展望，對他們來講是很大的推進。在數位化的部分，我們有提出一些政策建議，也發給所有斯里蘭卡主要的政黨，在過去兩個月來，有越來越多這樣的討論在國會發生，三個主要的政黨，包含其中一個是在國會大力宣傳這樣的理念。斯里蘭卡很容易有短暫一頭熱的情況，所以要怎麼樣把興趣轉移到真正實際上的操作，我覺得也是需要外界的推力，讓他們瞭解數位化一開始的初始階段會遇到什麼樣的技術問題跟挑戰要面對，如果完成的話，會是怎麼樣的情況，有這樣的想像。

我們也希望藉由我們與政府機構的合作，像媒體部和資訊權利委員會，有機會讓台斯長期的交流可以得到契機，大家對於爭取國際空間的壓力非常大，但是我自己覺得不管有沒有得到這樣的國際空間，在過程中，臺灣的存在就可以讓世界變得更好。

我們組織跟其他公部門直接的合作主要是透過另外一位執行長跟我先生，如果大家覺得有哪一個部分可能說得不清楚，或者是有什麼地方可以再更加補充的，尤其是針對媒體部還有資訊權利委員會的想法，我會請他幫忙補充。

聽起來是兩件事：一個像經驗分享，也就是臺灣在政府資訊公開法、數位化等等的一些模式，除了經驗分享之外，也有能力建構，能力建構就會比較花時間，也就是變成去看他們的公務體系有哪一些系統還沒有數位化，但是希望大家知道這件事如果數位化可以帶來怎麼樣的立即好處，就可以看是不是已經有軟體系統跟一些東西可以直接讓他們使用；第二個部分是感覺更進一步，也就是我們實際在用的工具跟系統也好，在斯里蘭卡落地。想確認是不是有這兩個部分？

部長說的是，基本上是有這兩個部分，我們的規劃是，是不是可以在策略規劃活動的其中一個 session 跟斯里蘭卡的政府高層，大概是 50 位去分享臺灣對於資訊公開、開放資料跟電子化政府等等，有想過的一個主題但也可以調整：「如何透過數位化來強化民眾的資訊權利跟經濟發展」。除了分享臺灣經驗以外，讓斯里蘭卡的政府高層有興趣來推動這件事，也必須要把自己腦中的疑慮給解決……

我們視訊還是人要過去？

視訊。我想 Q＆A 也是滿重要的一環。因為在這之後，他們會擬訂接下來 5 年的計畫，政府機構都會 5 年、5 年訂下來，從他們策略規劃的結論之後，我們也許就會向數位部請益，在這個過程中可能會有第二次的線上會議，在第二次線上會議的請益，我們希望可以找出進一步怎麼樣的學習需求。

其實斯里蘭卡那邊的政府單位，大家是很希望可以有 study visit，但也要有很明確的學習主題才不會浪費資源，所以我們找到進一步學習的標的之後，希望之後有辦法支持，也就是遴選一小批人，可能包含資訊權利委員會的委員等等來臺灣參訪。

看同仁有沒有要回應？

你們算是非政府的組織，只是跟政府機關有合作，你們是用什麼樣的力量讓這些政府的高層可以來參加這樣的線上會議？會不會來的其實並不是你們想像可以做決定的那些人？

We’ve built a mutual understanding with government institutions for a long time, like 10 years now. With the Right to Information Commission and Media Ministry, nearly six years’ period, we’ve developed understanding and trust.

We get the recognition not based on agreements. We work with them and there’re a few elements supporting us to build trust. One thing is we are a nonpartisan group. Another thing is trust; we do not take sole credit for any work we have done together.

We bring bottom-up ideas to support government institutions to change their policies.

There’re two types of commission in Sri Lanka. One is independent commission. It’s under the Constitutional Council. Another is commission appointed by the president, but commissioners are selected by the parliament.

Those commissions are under a ministry. This Right to Information Commission is under the Media Ministry, financial support coming through the Media Ministry. The Media Ministry has a collaborative plan with us for implementing right to information activities.

The both institutions are independent from each other, but the RTI Commission gets financial support from the Media Ministry. The Media Ministry has a separate unit called RTI unit. Actually, because of the former government, this RTI unit had stopped work.

We talked to the Media Ministry, offered support, and restarted the RTI unit. There’s a committee consisted of members of the Media Ministry and AFRIEL. The Media Ministry and the Right to Information Commission participate in this committee. We decide how we are working on right to information.

We ensure that when working with these two institutions, we open space for other civic society organizations to join as partners.

Your questions are critical, regarding how we are going to ensure these institutions’ participation. We have been holding all the government training programs related to the Right to Information Act for a year. We have already trained around 3,000 government officers, and now we start training another 10,000 government officers in the Sri Lankan public sector, including all the ministries, and we build a good relationship with them. Also, we conduct separate training programs for civil society organizations. We have a good background to organize these groups.

This Monday, 18th, we are going to have a group meeting with all the ministry senior information officers, Right to Information Commission, and the Media Ministry senior officials to plan the strategic planning session for the next five years of work.

This is what I can say from my side. Based on our organizational background and what we’ve worked with them in the past, we can ensure those government officials’ participation. It’s not based on an official agreement, but we can bring them together.

We’re networking and connecting institutions together, and meanwhile trying to keep our role neutral way and open up the space for others.

We understand. I think Director-General Wang’s question really is that you talk about information officers in each and every ministry. When we run, let’s say, a workshop to get all those CIOs or their director generals or section chiefs or the people that helped them, like their frontline staff, each level has its merits, but we didn’t know which level you have in mind.

This first stage we are having in mind are RTI commissioners and the Media Ministry officials, including four commissioners, the Media Ministry secretary and additional secretaries. Because one of the additional secretaries is the information officer. Ministry secretaries are next to Ministers. They’re in the position of decision-making. There will be selected national level civil society organizations as participants. Also, we are going to include a few grassroots organizations.

It will be like all by teleconference? Everybody will be at their home…

No. What we are… Sorry, I disturb.

No, it’s OK.

We are planning to bring them to one place for an in-person event.

I see.

We are not going to invite any political leadership to this event. Because current Sri Lanka political situation is very complicated.

Just career public servants, basically.

Yes.

But senior ones?

Senior ones.

You can explain about the minister.

Yeah, we are not planning to invite the minister because ministers they’re…

They’re MPs.

Yeah. Two reasons, actually. In the past one and a half years there were five-six media ministers in Sri Lanka. Everything was changing, right? The second reason is that their role is actually about cabinet participation and policy submissions. Other day-to-day administration is under the secretary.

我覺得這樣很好，我們可以從幾個部門或者有影響力的底層開始，我覺得 OK。我有第二個問題，如果我們去分享，會比較希望我們分享比如像剛剛講的幾個點，一個是公民參與的部分，或者是比較希望從政府內部效能提升的角度，又或者比較是線上服務給民眾的部分？因為這三塊可能個別可以講很多，我不知道會比較希望著重在什麼地方？

Serving democratic participation, that’s one. Making sure that there’s a good system for efficiency. Also anti-corruption. Actually transparency is the one that’s another or just to focus on delivering government services like the QR code for few or whatever that you mentioned.

It’s participation, accountability, and service delivery.

All the three points are important. I think we can, based on the first two focuses about government public service, and then democratic participation. It’s like a few stages.

I know. [laughs]

We can bring together civil society groups and government officials to talk about democratic participation.

所以是從數位政府服務先，增進服務品質，然後內部的效能，民主參與之後再說？

An important thing like corruption. Sri Lanka in the past one decade had good policy reforms. At the same time, there is a corruption chain between religious groups, business community, and politicians. There’re three groups.

When someone initiates good policy reforms, these three groups collaborate with each other and make moves to stop those reforms. The Right to Information Act is good. The problem is that, for example, someone questioned recently through a Right to Information application about the expired tear gas used by the government against protestors. Politicians are pressuring and said we can’t provide this information. The Commission should follow their procedures.

They’re using religious leaders, Buddhist monks coming forward and say: this is a threat to national security. Because these three groups are supporting each other and surviving through this corruption chain.

What I want to add about public service and other parties’ efficiency is that how we can build trust with senior officials, so it can be a tool for them to break this corruption chain sometimes.

In the past 10 years, in Sri Lanka, so many government officers have faced legal cases on corruption because of supporting politicians’ corrupt activities. This is what we are trying to say.

剛剛講到政府效能的部分，如果做得好的話，也可以防止一部分的狀況發生，假設 system 做得很好，然後很多的資訊都在上面被公開，一來民間的業者可以很容易標這個案子，二來這些標案的資訊如果公開在上面的話，就比較難以造成阻斷的狀況。

第二，如果我們內部一些計畫或者是公文，像我們的公文系統或者是計畫的管理系統，同時可以做到計畫的管理或者是內部的行政流程管理可以提高效率，可以追蹤回去到底誰做了什麼決定，或者是這個專案是怎麼管理的狀況，這也是同步可以做到防止弊案的發生。

想要再往下延伸，如果要做到上面 application 應用是很棒，但是我們可能還是要回到斯里蘭卡本身目前的基礎跟建設。

就是類似於 GSN、電子簽章法。

包含有沒有基礎建設的部分，聽起來網路應該是有了，但是網路要往上發展 application，一定要有公務人員的人事總處基本資料，或者財稅也是一樣，一定要有一些基本的設施，往上才可以繼續往上發展其他部分。

當然，如果以斯里蘭卡現在在做這件事，我覺得這個時間點是跨機關的標準，也就是我們之前在規劃的 T-road，如果可以把這個流程規範下來，也許在這個時候要做到跨機關之間資料的流通、應用，甚至從這樣的方式去強化效能，也許我覺得反而是很好的機會。

Before we move forward to experience-sharing, as I mentioned, I want to address the current infrastructure in Sri Lanka. Administration, documentation, and information maintenance are mainly manual.

It’s manual and for example, if I want to apply my land permit copy, there’s a book, like, sometimes 50, 60 years old. We have to apply and wait for a long time to get one copy.

What I want to say is, there’re so many challenges in this section. We can prepare a brief document within one month about currently what kind of existing structures, and what is the status of that. Then it’ll help prepare experience-sharing session. We can move forward that way.

Like now, there is a trial program with hundreds of divisional secretariats. We have 300 divisional secretariats, administration divisions, for national identity cards. I think Grace mentioned, like 700,000 citizens don’t have a national identity card.

Some 70-year-old people still don’t have national ID card. This kind of different sectors, different documentation processes, and it’s mainly manual. Some of the government institutions are collecting data. That also mainly manually.

Basically, we can prepare this brief document about the status and challenges, and what kind of current existing programs for changes.

可以，我們可以幫忙看。的確很多的應用都要從基礎的資料開始，因為如果沒有戶政的資料庫，你就不知道到底有哪一些人，也沒有剛剛講的地政資料，如果沒有資訊化的話，根本不用談線上做一些好的服務。

Actually, there were two programs. One is digitalization for national ID card and birth certificate, basic documents for citizens. They wanted to combine them into digital ID cards. This started 12 years ago in Sri Lanka, but it has still not implemented. All the money allocated for the digitalization process is almost finished, but it’s not happening. Some initiatives started, but it’s not happening.

其實在 1997 年有網路開始，在那之前就已經有戶政、地政、工商的大型資料庫，而且是數位化的狀況。如果斯里蘭卡現在要開始的話，也不見得要一下子做很大，或者甚至有一些功能是不是一定要自己建，或者是我們可以先從不用花太多錢的部分來做。

之前 ITU GovStack 就是媒合自由軟體，確保至少不用花太多錢在這些大的系統整合上，要做幾個就可以先做幾個原型看到，臺灣有一些專家在那邊。

對。

如果在 ITU，我們變成顧問的角色，也就是不用花太多錢的話。

反正概念是一塊一塊的東西可以拿來做，他們直接看怎麼用。

我們說 public code 如果 implement 到一個機關的時候，如果以公務員來講，其實是需要流程來做，所以一定要有一個顧問，至少可以裝得進去這些人，這樣才有辦法去做後續的流程如何規劃。

It sounds like service delivery is not a political issue, right? That we should have more efficient cost effective service delivery of government public services, that in itself is not partisan. There’s no major party opposing of effective delivery of government services.

No.

That sounds like most politically neutral.

Yeah.

Then maybe that’s a good starting point, just purely as a cost saving measure, Taiwan’s experience in cost saving.

I think it’s a good idea.

Yeah, because when we talk about high level things like open procurement, which is our flagship project, it’s really good for anti-corruption. On the other hand, that has to be political. If all the procurements, all the bids are free for the World Bank to see.

Of course, that’s good for anti-corruption. It’s also good for many other things.

My suggestion is to defer… We would’t talk about e-petition either, which is another flagship project from the NDC.

We start with something very humble, which is to minimize the IT budget to each and every ministry to deliver on their legally required public service purely as a conserving way.

My colleagues talk about public code, which means software that you don’t have to pay for license fee that comes with installation instructions. All you need is someone versed in computer to help you install and configure, and maybe translate to your local language, but that’s all unique.

Maybe we start with something very humble. Because if we start with something very idealistic, then there is a chance that the entrenched political parties or the religious or whatever interest will think it’s a direct threat to their position.

Yeah, that’s true. Very good. Because otherwise some political groups get to challenge this initiative. Yeah, I think that’s great.

So you will prepare some basic description and documents about the state of digital service delivery. On our side, we will think about the kind of public code or easily accessible code that we can use as examples. Very small examples, not comprehensive life procurement platform.

When needed, when asked, we can talk about open procurement and so on. It will not be a prescription. It will not be a “do this first.”

That’s great. What timeframe?

When would you hold the workshop?

Early January if possible.

目前的準備正在進行，看起來正式的活動是在 1 月，我不知道臺灣明年春節是什麼時候？

1 月 20 日。

大概的時間會是在 1 月 1 日至 20 日之間。

If it’s career public service level, then as long as it’s not the New Year holiday, we will we will be able to have teleconference. That’s fine. It will not be our MPs, it will not be our minister. That’s just say, not me. Because it’s not your MPs and not your ministers either. It would just be senior career public service, and senior public career service.

If it’s on that level and it’s just sharing the knowledge, of course, effective public service delivery using public code and other free resources, I think it shouldn’t be a big problem. Eric can probably…

目前看起來應該是 1 月 1 日至 15 日之間，最有可能會是連三天，所以是六、日、一，我們這邊也想請問什麼日期比較方便？

禮拜一會比較方便。

我只要盡早跟他們那邊確定，就會跟你們這邊聯繫，這個分享因為必須要翻譯，因為那邊英文算是官方語言，主要都是一些菁英在使用，所以事務官英文不一定聽得懂，因此在表達上可能差強，為了在時間上比較精準掌握，所以我們會提供翻譯，英文翻成另外兩個語言。

所以我們用英文講就可以了？

對。

好，所以我們的事務官，出現視訊是沒有問題的？因為我們也有公民團體、TEG 的學界夥伴。

I think that question we have to be careful as an organization. Yeah, I understand that because of Chinese government.

If we think about this, during the organizing period, as an organization, we are going to lead this part and we are going to invite government officials.

Yes. Sure. You are the host…

We will organize, and we will invite them. That’s going to be less challenging. That’s the way. I don’t think government officials are going to challenge or have any dispute about that.

Because before I came here to discuss, I had a meeting with senior officials in the Media Ministry. I met with the commissioners, they’re very happy.

Good. Did you tell them?

I think the government is also not going to, in this situation, Sri Lankan government, they don’t want to create any conflict between China and Sri Lanka, but they’re not going to challenge any other countries coming to support Sri Lanka, in the situation of zero foreign reserves.

Also, it’s not about finance. Government officials want to come out of this struggle. Because of that they are mostly welcome. That’s a very good environment to start this initiative.

On our side, we will not politicize this conversation. Which is why I will not be the speaker, because that’s automatically politicized. With the understanding that it’s a working level, senior public servant to senior public servant relationship, we’re happy with that.

As an organization, we take this as a very serious responsibility.

We need to start with the beginning. Thank you.