The computer program, but then the output, like a symphony, is the way people interact. And very quickly after programming quite a few games where other kids can use to learn mathematical concepts and interact with each other, I found that there really are like pro-social ways to arrange interactions in a game and also anti-social ways to design a game so people feel the need to compete in a negative sum or a zero sum way. And so I think the articulation from my side was helped by this instrument that is both very precise in a sense of mechanical, like almost engineering mindset, but also it is very creative in a sense of the human relationships it can foster. Of course, that then later led to the internet. And so I started a company when I was 15 with a couple of other friends. I was the chief technology officer, and we were the first firm in Taiwan to do online people-to-people auction like eBay. We call it Qubit, an instant messaging and search engine and things like that. Again, tapping on the ability for internet to connect people so people swiftly trust each other in that pro-social way. as kind of enjoying the same space together.