Yes, that’s so beautiful. That’s a perfect way to end. I’m so grateful for your time. Thank you, Audrey. Thank you, Michael, for being here. Thank you to everyone who will watch and read this. We hope to help bring this world to a better place through Taiwan.

Audrey, you’ve given us so much hope for what could be in a world where Taiwan is given the place it deserves, and where international institutions understand that they need Taiwan. Do you have any concluding thoughts you’d like to add?

Yes. I keep thinking about the UK as well. There are so many powerful countries that happen to be geographically small but wield outsized influence. It would be to the world’s benefit to have greater impact and influence from Taiwan. It’s such a basic idea.

Yes, yes. So well said. Michael, please share what you’d add.

I’m thinking about everything Taiwan can share so others can learn—and how that might help build the new international system we hope to see. Audrey, would you like to go first?

What are the lessons that mid-sized democratic nations can take from Taiwan’s resilience in navigating a system that seems stacked against them?

Yes, so brilliant. Finally, this is our last question—but if either of you want to add more of your expertise or knowledge, we can go a little longer.

I seem to recall, Audrey, that there may be a digital solution to this that you came up with—digital diplomacy around the countries that support Taiwan. Can you speak a little about that?

Yes, brilliantly said. Michael, do you have anything you’d like to add?

Audrey, what incremental reforms could global institutions make now to include Taiwan, even symbolically, without requiring full recognition?

I love it. I love all these visual metaphors, too—they’re very evocative. We need to make a Miyazaki film, or a Taiwanese animated film, to demonstrate all of this.

Audrey, yes—you have this expertise. Please share more on this question Michael has raised; your work fighting disinformation on behalf of Taiwan is extraordinary.

In transnational law enforcement, cooperation depends on trust and data sharing. How does Taiwan’s exclusion make all of us more vulnerable to cybercrime and disinformation?

Audrey is giving us hope for the future. But I have a follow-up question for you, Michael.

So inspiring! Michael, can international law adapt within existing structures, or does justice for unrecognized nations require building something entirely new?

So please share, Audrey: what is it in your concept of plurality that would lead us to a better global order?

There are these leading-light democracies like Taiwan, which could help everyone understand the way forward, if only they were allowed to. We can learn so much from you.

Your words already give me hope. I agree with what both of you are saying, and Michael, what you added. It’s upsetting—such a regression—to think the world could be based only on might-makes-right. We know that’s wrong. We know violence is wrong. We know endless war is not what we ...

Audrey, you have this brilliant concept of “plurality” that suggests democracy thrives on inclusive systems. What would a modern, plural global architecture look like if it were designed today?

Yes, we’ll see.

Beautifully said. Michael, would you like to add to that?

Can you speak to where we are in the international order? In my opinion, if smaller and medium-sized countries like Canada and Taiwan could drive the international order, we’d all be in a much better place. But I’m sure you both have strong views. Audrey, would you like to go ...

Wow. We spoke in advance about this next question. We want to keep Taiwan at the center of our conversation, but since we’re talking about international organizations and the broader international order, it feels like we can’t ignore this recent speech by Canada’s Prime Minister Mark Carney describing a rupture ...

Audrey, Taiwan has built some of the world’s most responsive digital systems. How does its exclusion weaken global capacity to respond to crises that demand openness and data sharing?

Your incredible work and innovation need to be shared.

Absolutely. It’s not enough that I personally learned “humor over rumor” and had the advantage of learning from Taiwan. Through <em> Invisible Nation </em> , we hope the whole world can see and learn from Taiwan—but including Taiwan in international organizations like the World Health Organization is what will make ...

Yes, in fact—Audrey, you have this expertise. I remember from our interview in Taipei for <em> Invisible Nation </em> , the “humor over rumor” campaign. You spearheaded these brilliant efforts that got people in Taiwan up to speed on what to do during COVID. Please share.

Yes, thank you so much. From a law and security perspective, Michael, what are the tangible risks when Taiwan is cut off from cooperation—whether in public health, cybersecurity, or aviation safety?

Michael, do you have anything you’d like to add to that answer?

Incredibly well said. I hope everyone can absorb this. I’m very happy—we will share the transcript of this panel along with the video so that people can really review your carefully thought-out words. It’s very important.

So, why is Taiwan’s inclusion in international organizations urgent today? Audrey, can you start us off?

Yes, thank you very much for sharing your personal views. Okay, great.

Thank you both for being here. Thank you, Audrey. Thank you, Michael.

Global governance is at a crossroads, and the world is witnessing escalating geopolitical fragmentation—from Russia’s nuclear threats to China’s intentions toward Taiwan, to the unraveling of the Western alliance under America’s now chaotic turn. At this moment of uncertainty, Taiwan’s exclusion from major international organizations poses a defining question for ...

I’m also thrilled to be joined by Michael Fern, who’s become a friend and is a cybercrime prosecutor and Deputy District Attorney in Los Angeles County, chair of the International Law Section of the Los Angeles County Bar Association, and author of American Bar Association Resolution 700 supporting Taiwan’s inclusion ...

Good local time for this hopeful conversation about why international institutions need Taiwan. It’s a huge honor to be joined by Audrey Tang, who is Taiwan’s cyber ambassador and first Digital Minister from 2016 to 2024, when I had the tremendous fortune of interviewing her for our film <em> Invisible ...

I’m very excited to be joined this evening. It’s morning in Taipei and evening in Los Angeles.