Yes, yes. OK. I’ll link you together, and…

Yes, is it OK?

…that are excluded, they pay taxes, everything, but they’re…He was very interest, I said, I told him that I go to Taiwan, I’m going to meet you, and interview you, and he was, “Yes, yes, yes, I want to invite her to Switzerland.” I think there is an event you ...

Residents…

There in Switzerland, it’s very strict. We have 25 percent of the people living…

Please use this, you can have this. I have…Thank you, oh, this is cool, I like that. Yes, yes. I did a piece with a similar person to you in Switzerland, his name is Hernâni Marques, his parents are from Portugal. In fact, he still, he’s not Swiss. He’s one ...

Stickers, if you ever come to Switzerland.

Cool.

Yeah, cool. It’s a…

So, thank you very much.

A Swiss army knife.

All right, so, you know what this is?

Gifts, yeah.

Cool. Before I forget it, I have some…

Yeah, it starts.

Conflicts, yes. Make this different between code…These are [laughs] new categories for me. Make the difference between code and law.

Yes, you have…

The norm would be, as you made the example of the 16-year-old girl, to abolish plastic straws.

Exactly. I had this in mind.

You had another drawing, with…

This is crucial.

The process, these I’d like to…where you, with a norm.

Yes, this is really crucial because it shows the difference of the approach.

Can I take some pictures of your detailed…

We’re through. Thank you very much.

So?

Yes, exactly. There was a lot of smile and making other countries made fun of Swiss democracy. How did you see this debate? Is there something like limits of issues and topics that should not be discussed or should be done with democracy? Should it be open to every topic?

One of the last votes in Switzerland was about a people’s initiative about cow horns, that there was a farmer who launched this initiative because he loves his cows. A lot of cow breeds are born without horn. He wants his cows to have horns. He asks for some money ...

I’m coming from Switzerland from this traditional but a very well-elaborated, direct democracy. Is there anything that you can learn from our Swiss example?

At the end, is there something like a short message that you could hand out to Switzerland, to traditional democracy and other countries in the world? Why should they develop and also be courageous to go, to follow, in a way, your example of digital democracy in Taiwan? What does ...

Is it handed out by the state?

There’s an actual debate in Switzerland about the introduction of a EID. The plan is that [laughs] the government, who is now a bit cautious, because there were fails, like e-voting, and they are cautious. They want to build up public-private partnerships, private companies would issue or give these EIDs ...

Do you see any risks for this digitalized collaborative democracy?

What about risks and dangers for a digitalized collaborative democracy? We have these examples connected to the election of Trump, to the Brexit vote in Europe. In Switzerland, an example is that government had to freeze in the almost 20 year try to introduce e-voting now this summer.

When you see these examples, as you mentioned, by these 16-year-old girls, what can you learn from these young, very active, and skillful young people with good ideas and a lot of energy to bring a change? What can you learn from these?

I just had to say my idea. Taiwanese Greta.

This is very impressive. I wonder now, who is, in a way the engine, who keeps this motor, the engine, running? Is this g0v? Is this you, as in a way, the link between movement and government? Where does this energy come from? Where does it start?

This is very, very impressive to see this, the high dynamic in developing and implementing it so that it really works. It’s this link between government and citizens so that citizens can have a say, right from the beginning can set the agenda.

Is this in overall users, or in one year or…?

…is a human right. Does this mean that the participation is high? Is really, is this the condition, the sine qua non that this, your vision, it’s not only a nice idea, but it’s implemented, it’s filled with life, with ideas.

You said broadband is…

It reminds me to the citizens of the people’s initiative in Switzerland. It’s only 10 percent of them are adopted, but they have a very important political and social impact. Not everyone, but even if they are rejected, so this, yeah.

Thank you. Is there also something like a flop, something that didn’t work, a project that…?

Is there something like a highlight, a really good example that you can present to foreign governments or in you contact when you were telling about your vision? Is there something like your most favorite project that you like to present?

Is there something like a magic formula that you could tell me or give to other countries, other governments, what principles they have to keep in mind to implement a successful and digital direct democracy, these kind of collaborative democracy. Is there this kind of magic formula? What would you ...

I have a very close contact in Switzerland to the most skilled journalist fellow in civic tech journalism. She asked me to ask you about a special platform Polis. She wants to know, is it still in use?

I think proves that it’s not just a nice talk, but it’s effective.

I’d be glad if you could send me in an email these links of this projects.

Now, let’s have a look at the toolbox of collaborative governance, digital direct democracy. I mentioned, or Jason told me about these two platforms, vTaiwan and Join. Are there other important tools that play a key role in this digital collaborative debate?

What topic is right in the moment is on top of your agenda? What are you developing? Which project?