For instance, the paperless country helped us to avoid the refugee crisis in 2022 and internally displaced crisis because in 2014, we had it. The country and the state was more or less stopped in some places physically, because people cared not about real needs, but I lost some paper, ...

In Ukraine, we are very proud of our online governance for our system Diia which has 130 services. Very cozy and also beyond being very useful and handy for the people, it really prevents a lot of problems and troubles.

It’s a service, basically. You know ProZorro. Right?

Just after telling that story about Uber, I understood what exactly the thinking is, and I’m giving a lot of examples about that to a lot of people. Maybe just let us start with that. That would be a very good introduction for our audience. What kind of things are ...

Therefore, I probably just really want to explain because it’s very hard to understand the complicated concepts at that time. We just heard there is this Ministry of Digital Affairs in Taiwan. There are some cool people who are trying to find the solution on how to depolarize society by ...

When I was also re-watching these interviews, it felt like pre war time. I felt like I returned to the peaceful time when we were dealing with…

Thank you. Still, before that, I think not as part of introduction, but I really want to say it. Since then, I really wanted that it would be an opportunity to interview, to do this, to do that maybe. And then the full scale invasion hit, and we all were ...

That story about Uber, the other thing. So you have a very specific role in establishing our organizations five years ago. [laughs]

I should say that when we founded the organization, which was pretty new and it was during a particular type of crisis we also have, I really read a lot about you. I went to listen to the conferences. I found it in Austin and elsewhere because, actually, it was ...

We created this organization whose aim was to investigate how we can create public interest journalism, which depolarizes. That’s when we learned about you.

One of our also good colleagues is Peter Pomerantsev, the British Ukrainian scholar researching propaganda. We were at the time thinking about what is happening in Ukraine, that the polarization in the country is used for exploiting vulnerabilities and creating division.

It was the only idea. We thought that the idea of debunking fakes is not that efficient because it makes you live according to the discourse of the people who create these fakes.

One of the major projects we work on is documenting war crimes. We’re collecting testimonies of the survivors for history, for litigation. Almost five years ago, exactly five years ago, we cofounded this organization called Public Interest Journalism Lab.

I’d like to introduce ourselves. We are Ukrainian journalists. We’re both cofounders of the organization called Public Interest Journalism Lab, which we now…We had a lot of experience in Ukrainian independent media. We used to work in the independent media.