Bye. [laughs]

Thank you very much. It was such a nice talk, and I really enjoyed it. Yes, the cover story, that will be our first edition in 2021, so I think that in the year, to make, to give to people a bit hope, and to look on good ideas, doing ...

What for you? If you take Imagine, or if you take I have a dream, I don’t know which one of them, both, you would prefer. What are you dream, or what would you like to imagine to happen? We are not talking in 50 years, but in the next ...

Yeah, so I heard, yeah. [laughs] There are two lines that are coming in my head when I think about creating a different world, a better world, doing a change. There is one, “Imagine” from John Lennon. The other one is “I have a dream,” from Martin Luther King.

[laughs] Why since a couple of days ago?

Yeah. Thank you for explaining. This evening, are you still working or having fun? It’s the same thing.

What are, for you, first just the context where you are now? Where are you sitting? What have you done? What will you do now? Just for the article.

Great to hear this. When you do the transcript of our talk, will this be in English or in Taiwanese?

That’s very nice. Thank you. When we talk about people that influenced you and that you think should influence the world and maybe should know them already…

When we talk persons…I don’t know. I was writing you about one hour to talk. If you have some more time, happy. If not, I don’t want to…

That’s very interesting. How did you came to this thinking? It was triggered by somebody thinking about this, or it was your personal way to approach? How this is come? It was first time that I hear something like this. It’s really interesting.

Me, I live here with four generations in one house, grandparents. That’s a model. What do you think when you hear this? How could come generations together in a little way, like I am doing here, and in a bigger way? Have you ever thought about this? Is this something…

[laughs] You’re very right. When we talk about community, we also could talk about generation. We have young generation, old generation. We also can look at it in terms of equality, but that’s not so necessary.

When you talk about this, the new nation, to prepare the planet, and new generations, you have this very famous movement, of course, FridaysForFuture. You have RadicalxChange. What do you see as further movement, and what does this mean for the world coming to us? What are the ideas in ...

When we talk about Glen, you know him personally. What do you think about him as a person, and what’s special about him?

When we look at the idea of design thinking in politics, there was an interview with German platform, the home page called TN3. It was quite difficult for me to understand the idea behind this. There was novel trials for this kind of design thinking. Could you explain it a ...

When you look at society today in Taiwan, but also maybe in Germany or other countries, what could you make better to have equality also in gender, and also for people that are not defining themselves as women or men?

Thank you. When we talk about equality, it’s also, I think, important to talk about gender equality. It’s quite interesting to talk to you about, because you are in-between. How was your experience, your feeling concerning was there for you a kind of equality, a possibility that felt really good ...

Are you in discussions with the people running the classical networks, the antisocial networks? Are they looking what you are doing, and is there a kind of exchange?

The vTaiwan, how many people are taking part using it and a part of the community?

…media, you have a different idea with vTaiwan. Can you explain me what’s antisocial about other social media, and what’s the idea of the algorithm that you have?

I do understand. Very good explanation. When we talk about vTaiwan and what you called antisocial…

They will contribute – excuse my English – with data and things like this. They need to get money for this. That’s something that people are saying. What do you think about these idea, and is this something that should be pushed further?

100 years ago, the value under the success was built with really working people. Today, in future, the work will be few people that will program, and a lot of people that will not contribute to this new value that we created.

Antisocial, yes. Before, just the idea to say, “OK, instead of giving them these kind of new labor for free,” to say, “OK, we’ll get better data, but we want to have money for it.” In the future, we’ll have many people without having work, like you had 50 or ...

Yeah. Glen started a bit in a different way when he said to me, “OK,” or he brought up his idea, data unions, or it’s in terms of money. You give away your data, and you get no money for it. When you go together, you could give to Facebook, ...

When we talk about data, there are very great terms that you use. You were talking about data competence. You talk about data dignity and this idea of data unions. I think you are very invested in them also. Can you explain me these three terms and talk a little ...

You’re working very close with Glen Weyl and RadicalxChange. What do you think about them? What do they contribute? What is the most important contribution of them to change and to equality?

That’s a very good explanation. When we bring it down a little bit, and when we talk about ideas that coming through, what are the ideas that you personally are the most invested in when you think about equality? What would your, if you had to rank it – it’s ...

That’s a good way of thinking of it. Do you see, of course, there are limits of equality? If you have total equality, it’s maybe the same thing as control. Do you think also about this? There was a big idea of equality 100 years ago, and that wasn’t working.

When we talk about equality, I’m talking about great ideas and great innovators in the world, thinkers with new ideas that are really anchored in the reality. There’s one big idea about it, looking very much on equality. What is equality for you personally?

You know you have these ideas and this opportunities to do something. How do you make sure and how do you bring people to really take part in it?

That’s great. You also have vTaiwan. I talked to a friend about this, and I found it fabulous. She said one thing to me. She loved it also, but she said, “But we have the problem. It’s all people who are not willing to do something.”

What’s the name of this girl?

Can you give me some more examples for this kind of economy? How it works, how it could evolve.

Can you explain me a little bit what would be the chance that we could take off it, and what need to be changed, and what maybe are some risks of it?

Maybe talk about equality, but before, we have this COVID pandemia, and the world will be different after. You were talking about that is maybe the golden time for social change and social innovators.

I do understand. This is something that casts before in the parliament. Like in South Korea, they had a long time to prepare. You had this in mind in Taiwan also, or it was more the new movement that managed it, not the only movement? How was it? What’s the ...

Yeah. Let’s start with the way you managed, and what was important for you in this process? You were so early and so good in it.

As you know, Germany is acting differently. We have this problem with data protection. That’s not always a problem. Sometimes it’s a good thing. Sometimes it’s a bad thing. I think we have the problem that we talk too much about data protection to protect people there. At the same ...

That’s quite interesting. When I see how you managed COVID, I have read a lot about you. I don’t ask at the moment the details how you were managing the masks and the idea of mask map, but maybe you could explain me what for you was the real success ...

When your look back to these times, what were your learnings? What were your learnings, personal learnings and technical learnings, that are important for you today?

[laughs] When you think at the time, what were your most important…Later you convinced Apple, if I have seen it right. What…

How came your interest? You were even programming without having a computer at the time. It was triggered a little bit by your father, by your parents, or how did it come that you have taken this interest in technical things and to be so mature in thinking, “OK, I ...

It was mid of the ‘90s. You wanted to teach yourself via Internet. When I remember back to time, it was quite early. In the mid-‘90s, it was really the beginning in Germany and Europe.

You left school very early. Is this right? I’ve read that you were about 14 or 15 years old.

For one year. What do you remember? How were the Germans there? How was the country? What are your memories of Germany?

You were a kid, 11 years old at the time, I’ve read.

That’s great. Thank you. Let’s start with your biography. That’s quite interesting. Your father was a postdoc or was…

You know the background. We are talking about a cover story in “Süddeutsche Zeitung.” You know this, or you need some explanation for…