Sure.

So maybe they will become guides, like guided-tour operators?

That’s in your business plan.

Yes. But then, according to your plan, you will still need them to get professional licenses as either robotic operators or augmented pilots at that time.

But in that future, actually, the habit that you are now building, in the sense of trusting amateur drivers, is actually counterproductive to the future you’re describing, because at that time, we will need another professional class that can be the interface between the robots and the public.

Right, so what I’m saying is that in the long term, to achieve our emission-free goal, your next steps would be more robotic-based. I do agree, and I think we can come up with innovative regulatory structures to make that happen.

Again, I wouldn’t really trust it to a random person who just want to drive a truck for fun, even though they may have an amateur driver’s license.

Right, so at least for the next, I would say, 5-10 years, we have to work on the way to how to switch from autopilot to the local roads.

Even for automated truck driving, you’d still have to have the local part of it. Once they finish the highway, there has to be somebody who drives it to the local depot.

And then for professional truck drivers, we of course established a even more strict regulatory structure, and we’re not saying that people can just hop on a random truck and drive them home as amateurs, like "anybody can drive a truck." I don’t think that’s true, right?

But these things have a distinctly different theme compared to what you just described, right? We don’t have people who drive helicopters for fun, a few hours or a few minutes during their business hours. It has to be something professional, that there really is no question around that, right?

...of how we’re contributing, then we can talk about it here or we can follow up.

Sure, and I think maybe we all agree, so if you do have other suggestions to the details...

No, it’s not.

As for fines, I think this is not something the administration has proposed. If I remember correctly, it’s the legislators. Probably just they decide, and I’m not in connection with that legislator. I just read public information, as you did, but public information says that it’s to be charged proportional ...

Again, I don’t really know which of these models will work, but we have changed the pricing structure so that they can charge more, even on surge pricing. We think there are some economic incentives for them to participate in this kind of new fleet.

We do want to work with regional cities to set up fleets that are designed for maybe the night time, maybe for special needs, maybe for elderly, and things like, like special service fleets, which is why we call them fleets. They are really just individual people who passed the ...

You mentioned fleet size and you mentioned the fines. I think there is no restriction of the minimum size of the fleet in our new e‑taxi regulation. It could be just five cars deciding to share riders among themselves. Of course, I do agree the liquidity and the critical mass ...

Well they can join a co-op fleet.

I do agree on all the principles. Whether or not Uber wants to work with one of the fleets who did register and become the technology supplier, like you did in China, in the Mainland, I believe, or you want to register a local company. It’s your choice, of course, ...

We almost say that it has to be paid exclusively through e‑payment. We have a sunrise period. For initial year or two, they can still take cash, but eventually they will all switch, which keeps their audit trail. That can make your case, also. (laughs)

The whole idea is not to convert existing taxis or existing fleets. It’s to set up a diversified, a different fleet that doesn’t have a medallion, that isn’t painted yellow, and is exclusively app‑based.

I think our main difference still lies in the view of the regulation we’re passing the previous month, which you described as grafting it onto an existing law. As far as I understand ‑‑ of course I wasn’t Minister of Transportation, but I did participate in initial sketch of the ...

This is something that we can streamline. I don’t think it’s paper‑based nowadays to take a written exam. When I say written, I just mean written. It can be like e-written.

I do agree. It’s making the pie larger, so to speak. It is providing people who wouldn’t normally be conveniently calling a taxi a way to participate in transportation, so they wouldn’t then have to drive their own car and things like that, so I agree 100 percent.

We did look at all of it last year, when we were making the civil deliberation about what we call the private, for‑profit driving. At the end of the day, as you said, it’s making some more money, so it is for profit. Otherwise, it’s just a community carpool.

No, anyone could.

This goes back to the open API idea. If we do have an open API of those other ride‑sharing dispatches, for the delivery and everything, then we can aggregate it, so that the driver...

It does give the driver more choice. I do agree with that.

Yeah, sure. When I was in Paris, one of the cars that I went into, I wouldn’t even call it an Uber car, because they have five different smart phones on the dashboard.

Exactly.

It’s computerized, but anyway.

I’m saying it’s comparable, but you’re saying that it’s not. I would like to hear more.

And 4.5 stars. Then, we’re comparing it to applying to a local authority of the Ministry of Transport, to go through very similar background checks and criminal records, and then pass a written exam about the responsibility of professional drivers.

Sure, but an Uber driver’s license.

Sure, of course. My main agenda is just to listen to your side of the story, as complete as possible. I’m just saying that currently you were comparing a driver, a part‑time driver maybe, applying to Uber for background checks, for everything, and getting an Uber driver’s license, for lack ...

Yeah, sure. I agree 100 percent. I think we’re in violent agreement, here.

I’ve used it in Paris, yeah.

Sure. UberPOOL is not in Taiwan though. I knew it from Paris.

All this, we can agree in principle, and we are already putting them in effect.

We do want to, of course, make the roads congestion‑free and eventually move to a more autonomous or semi‑autonomous cycle, although I think the rides of your Otto line, the long‑haul trucks, with what we call software‑defined rails, will probably happen first. That’s easier and contributes more to the carbon ...

...to make that efficient. We also have local and maybe non‑local technology companies who are willing to work with these fleets, to make e‑fleets that serve those under‑served areas or the areas that have a lot of congestion. That’s already happened as of a couple of weeks ago. We’re now ...

Now with the new regulation that was just passed last month, we’re now taking applications. We are now basically saying these are the professional drivers who, as we said, maybe they’re riding on the street and then contributing to congestion, because there’s no planned algorithm...

There is already ride‑sharing communities, usually around commutes to universities, and so on, in Taiwan. So far, there’s been no for‑profit operators, because the law was not allowing app‑based car dispatch.

Sure, sure.

If it is, and if it does cause a problem, of course the Ministry of Transport can look into streamlining the process. But, from my personal experience, it just involved going into one single office of the Ministry of Transport. It’s not multiple government agencies. If that’s the only barrier ...

Right, it’s just certifying that you have more skill than a non‑professional driver. It’s a skill‑based examination, mostly about understanding the duties and responsibilities as a professional driver. That’s not a very high barrier of entry, personally speaking.

As for the Ministry of Transport, from what I’ve been personally through to obtain a driver’s license, it’s really not more one week’s time. There is one exam, I think, one written exam, and that’s about it.

Right, so the main contention is just to obtain professional driver’s license. You would like drivers to not obtain professional driver’s license, because it costs too much or...