Is — would this apply to those situations as well?

Why didn't I know about this? And what is holding this sort of technology back? Is it awareness, like in my case, or is it money or is it big tech is afraid of these things, or is it social organization?

Why aren't these things scaling more rapidly?

Yes. So actually we need to heal people's dopamine addictions concurrently so that they move into this more zen, holistic human experience. And then obviously this is the type of social media that I would prefer rather than clicks and likes and unexpected reward of some goat that claps and falls down and a snake crawls under it.

And woo, I never saw that before. Which doesn't really give us much meaning or depth or purpose to our lives. Anyways.

Oh, that's a great idea. I'm gonna do that starting today. It's called color filter. I'm gonna do that.

So moving on to a more serious topic, not that the things we've been discussing aren't serious, but how might the events we're seeing right now, especially in the United States, playing out with big tech and tech oligarchs, damage people's inherent trust in technology that might limit some of the opportunities you've been describing. What do you think about that?

So I've heard you in a conversation with our mutual friend Tristan Harris who introduced us. I've heard you use the phrase, "the most careful should win the prize," in reference to how our current systems incentivize people and companies with dopamine and dollars, et cetera. Can you unpack by what you mean by that statement and how is your work creating those mechanisms to incentivize care?

So this is very eye-opening and exciting and we've approached what I call a species-level conversation. And almost a rite of passage for our species at large. And there's lots of countries in the world. Do you ever think that there's something unique about Taiwan and the population of Taiwan and the culture that made it a more viable place for these strategies and movements to take hold?

Or is it applicable anywhere?

So before becoming the Minister of Digital Affairs in Taiwan, you were a very engaged youth activist. And as I understand it, you were also a reverse mentor in the Taiwanese parliament. Yes. Which is a role for people under 35 to advise older officials. So, in your opinion, what is the role of young people today in governance and in participatory democracy?

And what lessons do you take away from being now both sides of the reverse mentorship in Taiwan.

Do you have any specific recommendations, Audrey, on how the listeners and viewers of this program can create a better relationship with technology as an average citizen who wants to be informed and engaged with their governments and institutions. What advice do you have for the viewers to better use technology?

So it's creating a dopamine speed bump of sorts.

So you said there's lots of different methods. Where would someone go to learn about those methods?

So this has been just an amazing discussion because I realized the importance of this topic, and I'm not even a novice in it. So I've learned quite a bit. If you could take your open society, software, plurality hat off, and just as a citizen of the world today, facing the poly-crisis, and what I refer to as the human predicament, what sort of advice do you have for people being alive at this time? Being aware of the issues that we face and the challenges — just as a human to human.

With the possible exception of maybe Daniel Schmachtenberger , I don't know if I've ever listened to someone for five minutes without interrupting them.

So I think it's good advice. What about young people? I know you care deeply about young humans because you were quite active in your younger years. What specific recommendations do you have for young humans in my country, in your country, around the world listening to this, who become aware of our economic, social, ecological problems?

So I have a couple closing questions that I ask all my guests. I hope you don't mind. I know it's approaching midnight in where you are. What do you care most about in the world, Audrey?

Thank you. If you could wave a magic wand, what is one thing you would do to improve human and planetary futures?

Jao? Yes. So what are you working on now and what are you most enthusiastic about that you can share?

Good enough ancestor. I love that.

I love it. If you were to come back on this show sometime in the future, 6, 9, 12 months from now, what is one topic that is relevant to our future that you are personally passionate about that you would like to take a deep dive on?

Awesome. This has been great. Audrey, do you have any closing words for our viewers today?

Thank you for your time today and for your very important work and to be continued, my friend. Thank you. Take care. Take good care. If you enjoyed or learned from this episode of the Great Simplification, please follow us on your favorite podcast platform. You can also visit thegreatsimplification.com for references and show notes from today's conversation.

And to connect with fellow listeners of this podcast, check out our Discord channel. This show is hosted by me, Nate Hagens, edited by No Troublemakers Media, and produced by Misty Stinnett, Leslie Balu, Brady Hayan, and Lizzie Sir.